Can this forum replace a 12 step program?

Yes! Absolutely!

Maybe more pm based I guess?  Thanks la for the response.  Yeah it would be fancy to develop a program that somehow covers the basis of a 12 step program while being entirely customized to relate with Iboga post treatment.  I just know that for me NA was quite frankly repulsive with the dogmatic themes and I would really like for people to have more bright futures of honestdove19.

interesting idea.  i think that this may work for some people.  and it would be a good alternative to those many people who do not accept the christian-god centric dogma that the 12 steps preach.  however, the act of physically going to meetings and interacting on a human level with others in the same boat, is more important than the book imo.  I would like to think that natures simplicities/complexities (iboga) eventually be embraced by modern culture as an equal or better alternative to modern medicine.  I am in the medical world, and things are getting worse and worse every year specifically big pharma/big insurance.  Luckily I hang out on the fringes of the medical community, so I have not been brainwashed like so many health care providers.

Good topic, but we have already begun - or rather - tried to begin - a similar model: http://Ibogaine.club/index.php?board=22.0 There were members constantly inquiring about a 'sub category' or an additional board - dedicated to ideas of staying clean after detoxing with iboga/ibogaine...particularly with respect to the 'newly submerged' flood-ees, and how these experiences are difficult if not impossible to talk about in traditional 12 step circles. It would serve as just the kind of thing your original post suggests, KP - but it never took off. For all the very serious talk and experiments we involve ourselves in around these circles, there is precious little 'common-sense', pragmatism, or shared wisdom concerning our daily affairs if we begin to discuss 'structure' or 'normal people'. Routine is viewed as mundane by the counter culture at large, something beneath and opposed to individualism, or especially creativity. But routine also implies and requires some amount of discipline - and that is where the jewel is in this stone... the shiny part of this rock is the discipline. A word buried deep in my anachronism lexicon  I have , as many of you addicted wanderers, spent time in and out of AA or NA groups. For a solid ten months of my life in 2001 it (AA) was my raison d'etre. It quite literally kept me alive. I will probably never agree with ALL of 'their' philosophies, but the apparatus of 'the twelve steps' - whether they're applied to dope, booze, gambling, dressing up like a baby or living with a real doll -  is so absolutely sound IMO that it is basically above reproach. So many people trip about the 'God' thing - this is only semantics when it comes down to it - sure there are zealots, this is any group, but the fundamental idea of this program is to help an individual find this elusive 'higher power' and that can and does come to each of us in the only way it can come to us that matters: personally. I have deep respect for these programs, not the institutions behind them or the bureaucracy that spins the red tape, but the grass roots idealism of the founders and their courage to draw it forth. It is, like any other powerful tool we may use to manipulate our lives...MAGIC. I was kind of surprised that after being asked several times, that those boards remain untouched. Oh, I myself am guilty of this very discrepancy...I am terminally lazy yet have paradoxically been busy as ever. Enjoy that irony, I do. I for one would enjoy seeing more posts in these fields, they're free you know. And you don't have to say, 'hi I'm KP and I'm a frogaholic'... Thanks for bringing this up, as usual it is serendipitous. ~Cal

To OB... Yeah, I would like it to be something where people can meet up if at all possible.  I can feel the damn about to break and the entire west is gonna FLOOD! Bwiti comith.  But that is my usual honestdove19 speaking and may not be reality whatsoever.  To connect the dots pm style and pan out the maps for localities little by little maybe. To Cal... For some reason I slept on the new board even though I commented on CP's write up, what a dum dum I am at times.  Your comment on Frogaholic really got me laughing so I want to thank you for that.  I guess I have aspirations for taking this to a very dilligent level of writing up a modality so to speak.  I look forward still to more responses wink wink he knows who I am talking about.  Can we put this in that subforum then since I posted this in the wrong place? I would however like the program to be based on the higher power of Iboga.  But these are just my subjective feelings, I can't believe this subforum has been left alone.  I guess I will plan on putting focus in that direction and stop veering off the subject... IBOGA!!!

I think depending on the net for support is just adding to the problem.  Good way to stay isolated for sure and Addicts do love being isolated.

Howdy Folks, I have said a long time ago that this forum was like a 24 hour NA meeting only they don't bitch at ya if ya use.  This forum is a Great place and can help some find what they are looking for but to be honest many of us are looking for a buzz.  If you not looking for a buzz or harm reduction you should not be here.  Now NA and AA are great programs that help a lot of people, including myself and that is a fact.  I have heard people who were drunks quit and still sober 20 and 30 years later, same for dope.  If not NA or AA type what else is there??  One person I know goes to CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and I don't think detox centers have a high success rate either.  Look at Ibo, it took me 4 times to crack my head and it's the best I have ever done - you must crack your head. As far as the God thing goes it is not necessary a Christian thing; Buddhist and  Muslims can worship any way they see fit.  One person used his credit card as a higher power and another his home group of NA.  People like to bitch about something.  One guy was pissed that he was told he had a disease and he assured me he had no disease.  I asked him if he ever had a cold or flu - well that's a short lived disease.  Another person told me that he was not helpless with his addiction and I could not help but wonder when he was going to quit, I mean the guy has been using for years.  I was helpless as hell, I could not go 4 hours sometimes, oh man I could tell you stories but you guys have heard it all and done some of it so I will spare ya. If you need help at an affordable price you can not beat NA but you got to try, yeah it's had to kick and stay clean.  Yeah, hard as hell. Oh Cal, how about if I am living with a blow up doll??? Best to all,   cinderpath

I don't like the way AA/NA require you to believe that you are powerless, as it takes away the power you ACTUALLY do have.  People lack discipline, that is what makes it hard to kick.  The lack of discipline is what makes people think they can't quit the opiates/opioids..The reason most people can't use addictive drugs recreationally, is because of this lack of discipline

Hi patientorchard, May I ask if you ever used Iboga to kick and if so did it work? Best,   cinderpath

I used it for post traumatic stress from the events that occured about 3 months before when I got in some serious Ganja trouble.  Yes it worked in fact it saved my life, I was on the verge of calling it quits(life) facing too many fears of babylon punishments.  But the Iboga flood made me feel at ease and confident that all would work out.  It also made it so I never have craved ganja again.  I use to be a serious Ganja addict. So yes it worked very well, and continues to work even better day by day.  BTW around the same time I met a man from Gabon that worked at Whole Foods and his brother was living with him.  His brother had used Iboga to end his Ganja addiction too.  So it can work in many ways.  Also I am not against Ganja in any way, but I can never use it again because I have no moderation with it...it takes over me.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary  I love this view of AA..  Cracks me up!

Hi Insomia, I used to say the exact same thing you did and still do to a point.  I have heard people get mad and say "I don't have a disease"  well if ya ever had a cold or the Flu you had a short acting disease.  Or if you had diabetes would that offend you?  No, I am not being sarcastic just putting it out there for you to think about.  I was just talking about the disease/ higher power thing a week ago.  About being helpless or powerless I was powerless - I had no control at all, I was powerless as hell.  I had to cop or go through hell and could not quit and when something like this spans 45 years you better get yourself straight, most people do not make it 45 years.  Also, like you say I went maybe a whole summer by getting up and running to cop and every day I would tell myself "This is the last time, tomorrow I am going to quit"  yeah, did that a whole summer. When your in a fight with a gorilla  you must use anything you can for you can easily get killed.  NA/AA helps some people but it is not for everyone.  And about the disease thing, American Indians have the highest incidence of alcoholism and the Jews have the least so could genetics have something to do with it?  I understand where you and GD are coming from but you can go to the meetings and get the good vibes of people trying to put their life together, you do not have to agree with everything they say. Anyway, I enjoyed talking with you and glad to see ya on the forum. Best   cinderpath

Hey there Roy D, Yeah I hear ya, I mean I guess the giving up power can be good, but it should only be part of the steps. Its like the giving up power is the thing you have to learn to live with for the entire time you remain sober. Like if it was a group for you to give up the power and let them take you in and show you the way, to rebuild your power in a sober way of living. It just feels so down and depressed... I was really starting to feel so good about myself when I was a few months clean, and got my 3 month tag/chip.  but they just bring you down, making you believe that you will never be in control, the addiction is your whole life, let god show you the way, and let him have the power. As if they are saying you will never be anything, other than a servant of your addiction and god.. It just got to me, so I had to quit going because it just got me down, hearing the same sad stuff everyday, day after day, and how you will never be anything other than the servant.. But that disease thing, I dont really think we could compare the examples your are using though. Because we did not take a flu or cold inducing pill and pretend like it wouldn't effect us, nor did we raise/lower our blood sugar to the point of diabetes, telling ourselves we had it under control.   I mean its not that I dont like the thoughts of someone claiming I have a disease, its that I think that calling our self induced psychosis as we could call it, a disease is the easy way out. As if it wasn't our fault in the first place. What I am saying is I think we should indeed take true responsibility for OUR actions, and not claim that it is something we HAD no control over. Because we DID. We did have control over preventing our addiction, but as we both agreed, we kept telling ourselves that we would stop at "such and such" time, or quit when I run out of money, etc. Instead of quitting when we planned to quit before it got out of control, we let it spiral into a mess from hell... So I think we should take that responsibility as well.. I am willing to take responsibility for my addiction. As I have been down the path of addiction to methadone before, and got 100% clean off it going through cold turkey withdrawals ready to kill myself for months straight... Then I got to a point to where I LOVED MY LIFE, and I couldn't of been happier.. Then a few months later, I started hanging around my father (My enabler) and my other drug addicted friends, and watched them do drugs, and told myself, wow I really miss that feeling, I just want to nod, I just want that social feeling I get from methadone again.. So I took a methadone, and got high as hell, having not did it in a long time. So I loved it again. I felt bad as I couldn't lie at NA about being clean anymore... so I ended up taking it again. and Again.. And I swear I could of stopped no problem after the 5-10th time of snorting that methadone 10mg. and I told myself, You are being an idiot! You are throwing EVERYTHING you worked for away again, and you are going to have to go through that suicidal hell again!!! How can you do this to yourself... But I would keep getting free methadone everyday, and say hey I cant just not do this free methadone, so I would do it, and say, I wont ask for any, and wont do it again even if it is given to me... But sure enough I continued to do it again.. Been back on methadone for a half a year now... I really could of prevented this, but I didn't!!! Like a fucking idiot, I let it continue even though I KNEW the reciprocation's...(I think thats how its spelled)  So I dont think it could really be classified as a disease.. because we gave it to ourselves... In my eyes a disease is something you never chose to get. Say Malaria for instance, no one gambles with malaria and says okay I will think about taking those malaria prevention pills tomorrow, then the next day, say I will take them tomorrow, etc. until you have malaria.  Malaria would sneak up on you, and it would be news to you that you now have malaria. That would be a disease that one has no control over.  Addiction we had our chance but we blew it... We fucked up our one and only chance...  So like I said I think it could be called "Self Induced Psychosis" which could also be considered a disease in a sense but disease is overgeneralizing to be "nice" about it, instead of taking the responsibility for our own mistakes.. And yeah I totally agree with you on going to meetings to get the good vibes and meeting nice new people, etc. Thats also what I stated in my post, how I think its really great for the friends you meet, the people who are there that understand everything we are all going through, and the kind warm hearted people that  are there. Like I said I feel bad I left cuz I miss some of them. I met this really nice lady there, we used to talk all the time, in NA and out. We rode together sometimes, etc.  She messaged me about a month ago and all her text said was "Hey man! Are you alive!?"  And I didn't even text her back as I was just embarrassed, high, and sick and disgusted with myself... I really feel bad... All this talking about it makes me want to message her. I will probably text her right after this post! And thanks for posting and chatting buddy! This thread really is neat, and can work out. I think its genius how its goin already and its just the beginning! There should be a new thread, or change the title of this thread to "Daily Forum NA - Share your Thoughts!" or something, and whoever needs to talk can post and it will be guaranteed to get a reply.  I know I am not doing anything all damn day as I am drug addict without a job, so I sit on these forums most of my day, mess around in the garden, and study all day, so I know I can respond to anyone's comments. Thats for sure. Idk its up to you folks though, since I am the new guy, I dont choose the options. But yeah even this alone is making me want to go to NA again. I will probably show up there tonight or something and see how everyone is, and let em know im still alright, not sober, but alright. Probably will start going once a week or something. Step at a time. A step at a time. Its just kind hard for me now, since I have isolated myself for months now, I find it so hard to even hang out with old friends or anything... It sucks... One friend told me they were coming to pick me up to hang out. This girl is beautiful, and we were together for a while, and even though I still really care about her and everything.. when she told me she was picking me up, my heart sank, my anxiety went through the roof, i started shaking, sweating, just freaking out!  just because I have isolated myself for so long now... Its horrible.. I just need to make that one step and just get out into life and stop being such a bitch... I guess.. Again, sorry for my long posts. I get carried away with detail... Thanks for posting roy d. I appreciate the extremely fast comment. That was real cool of you. Peace and Love to you brotha. Im Cody, and Im an Addict. Lol now its officially NA.

I'm down for an NA type meeting thread, but without any of those silly rules.  We can talk about our problems and help each other through them, without needing certain rules and dogmas, because not everyone needs to be indoctrinated to sort out their demons.  Some of us can do it the hard way and teach ourselves how to keep control.  We can learn discipline, we just have to want it bad enough.

Sounds great! I will wait for one of the many that frequent this forum start it instead of me, being new here and all. And while this is on the topic of recovery, I warn anyone not to waste their money and go to a place called "Narconon". My ex girlfriend went their after being suggested by her rehab center. Soon to find out it really has nothing to do with recovery, they lie, conieve, rip you off, and BRAINWASH you into converting to Scientology.... You can look into it if anyone who reads this was considering it as an option to recovery. Dont let them fool you. And if you disagree with them, like this one poor fella, they will take you to a random bus stop and drop you off alone with nothing, or no one.

"Fuck L.Ron Hubbard, and fuck all his clones...." we can do this thread, but gimme some time and input to make it happen. I tell you right away it will get hot in here sometimes though.... The floor is open for suggestions on what this could look like. Oh and you guys need to pass around the basket (to me) every day too

Hey brightwillow, What the hell is wrong with you knocking my bud Mr. Ron L. Hubbard??  Don't you know that he has saved countless lives and helped people in the gutter get their life together.  He and his Scientology has helped people like John Trovolta and a bunch of others.  They are all rich and famous and some fly airplanes and they owe it all to Ron. Why don't you sign up for a course or two and prove it to yourself??  Maybe you can get off drugs and become all you can be - no, not join the army - fool, join Scientology and give get a lot of money and buy an airplane and then we can get together and go someplace like the Caribbean and pick up some chicks.  Yeah with my looks and your money and airplane we could have a Great time.  That's how me and my buddy Big Al (Al Capone) did it back in the old Chicago days.  Yeah, I would drive his armor plated Cadillac which was better than the presidents and rightly so.  Nice guy that Al, but ya gotta know 'em, that's important. Best,   cinderpath

- a line from a Tool song my good man, and yeah let's pick up some chicks. You provide the airplane.

Yessir that's exactly what I mean. And that's okay too - a little hot sauce tastes great on my scrambled eggs. These deep philosophical discussions touch the very core of who we are - and there will inevitably be some theological discourse too, and this I foretell is where some the warmth may generate...God - or one's interpretation thereof - is at the core of finding one's self through the traditional 12 step programs. Call it what you want, I like the word God because it is easy to type, short, and most people at least know you mean business when you say it. But people's spirituality, what they believe in this regard, is something that many will go to great lengths to defend, etc... I am all good with whatever projects you guys want to try around here, I'm just saying I have been to enough meetings and such that from time to time it can be a sauna, that's all. Let us all just remember to respek each other. Big love!

I saw this topic the other day and wanted to show support for the idea. I dont know much about na, but its been essential for some x-users i know. Personally it scares me some bec I dont think I fit in w/their principals. I adhere strictly to a loosely formed idea of what god is. Spirituality is in all of us but how it materializes is individual. But if a thread can replace a 12-step, maybe it doesnt need 'steps' - or even need to debate na. Those who dont mind sharing whats been most helpful to their success would be super cool to hear from. Im flying blind rt now.   Mostly, I think just having others support, and reaffirming from time to time that we are all worth the effort it takes to repair our own lives, would be really nice here.   ~    >")))o~<restlessturtle

12 step programs have helped me in many ways since 1990 . if it works go ahead and work it .

Exactly what I was thinking. When I was REALLY withdrawing bad from methadone not too long ago, and I posted here for the first time, It really helped me out to hear the others giving support, which I would of never recieved being that I just locked myself away in solitary.

I keep trying to imagine how l will be clean and cant. Everything Im used to, all my habits, the structure of the day, is going to drastically change. It must. Its a mystery ahead, but I want it so bad. I will be like a baby, trying to find myself and figure out how to carefully move ahead, avoiding the pitfalls and stresses thatll drive me to use. As badly as I want to get clean, Im afraid of the depression and afraid to fail. My fear of wasting my life away and the desire to just do normal things again, is whats driving me to quit. Hope Im ready this time. Happy wishes V

Hi V, Oh boy, you hit the nail right on the head.  Yeah, if you read the job description you find just about everything you said.  It should include being robbed, going to jail, getting hep C and you can get aids from a needle too.  Now I guess you could say I am old fashioned but would rather get aids the old fashioned way.  Yeah, not all that funny but it is free. Not being a smart ass but you need help as you can see from what you posted.  You can get counseling or talk to a therapist but all in all you can not beat NA.  Now, NA is not for everyone, you got to work at it.  Now this in just my opinion as others do not like NA.  As you know once you are thoroughly  addicted it is no fun anymore, feels ok but the price is too high.  Too high when you go to cop, too high when they toe your car in, too high if ya got to go to jail, too high if it cost your family and losing custody of your children, too high...  ok you guys know, no sense in going into everything.  Addicts do not live a happy life. Best,   cinderpath

Yep, Im afraid of losing everything good and hope between that fear and the drive for a simpler life, Ill stay focused. I keep thinking, nothing life can throw at me straight could be as stressful as how Ive lived at any point using. But time can go so slow when youre down. One day at a time sounds like baby steps but I bet Ill be thinking one hour at a time. Ive always been reclusive, long before h, but Ill give na a try and see what I can get out of it. A post ibo support network, with advice on follow-up, rootbark dosing, etc, would be great. The flood was pretty straight forward, what to do afterwards was questionable. V

Yeah, what you do afterwards seems to be key to the staying clean aspect.. The only reason I am delaying my flood, is I am just not prepared correctly.. If I have a beautiful mind opening flood experience and lay all my problems on the table, and feel good as can be without being tied down to Methadone, Heroin, Percocet, etc.  If I am not prepared I will be tempted by that thought of Euphoria at almost every moment. At this point living where I am, around addicts through-out the whole day, getting offered drugs all the time. I have to find a new place to live, and stay away from the people I am going to be tempted by.. I saw this documentary called "Facing the Habit" and this guy went from doing 2 grams of H a day, then he does the ibogaine treatment, and feels completely fine without any temptation, but as soon as he went back to his home, around all the stuff that made him tempted to use, he went back to it not too long after.. There's a scene of a call from him in Jail and he says "The Ibogaine worked, I didnt.."

That makes perfect sense. I cant move and will have to handle random people showing up and running into users in the neighborhood. It would be ideal to start over in a new environment. Gonna try to at least get out of town a while after trtmnt.

Yeah, you got that right when I walked in the house from rehab I could feel it.  Moving helped me for I could get weed and coke but no one with heroin and I was opiate free for nearly 8 years. Best,   cinderpath

Interesting topic here guys.  I still think there may be a benefit for some in traditional 12 step meetings.  Personally I could never stay sober from alcohol in AA, for more than 60 days.  I have benefited from the fellowship of AA and SAA from past experiences.  Even if one doesn't fully accept the whole 12 step program, it still can be conducive to long term recovery.  I think one never arrives, but is a continuous journey. Just my thoughts...peace all.