Reincarnation and Spirituality

Ya know, I had never thought of depression as being developmental.  I have wondered if its pre-historic survival value came from limiting the urge to be hunting/gathering when the weather or other conditions prevented the activities.  I'm very glad to find out that I am definitely not a sociopath! Depression, along with shame, remorse, regret, etc., has definitely helped me to see and, in many cases, rectify thoughts and behavior that were not in others' or my best interests. I can also see depression as being valuable for the awareness that our perceptions of the world and ourselves can be so different from time-to-time, depending on our moods.  Being able to view things from different perspectives is a valuable ability.  Indeed, the ability to experience the full spectrum of human emotions and outlooks is valuable  --  just so long as one does not get stuck in one of them. Human emotions are similar in some ways to being high on specific drugs.  There are undoubtedly specific, unique neurochemical states that occur when someone is depressed, angry, happy, etc.  I knew a couple who used to 'get off' on fighting  --  that's when I made the link between drugs and emotions.  They would do it regularly, like addicts getting their fix.  Following that line of thought, are people whose "depression goes on & on & on" addicted to the neurochemical state of depression?  Am I a depression addict?  I do find that depression can become a habit. The first recollection I have of a depressed-like state is lying in bed around the age of 5 and staring intently at the edge of the ceiling and wall.  After staring long enough, it would be as though I was receding into the distance behind (or within) me.  The visual representation of the scene would actually appear smaller, just like looking through the wrong end of a telescope.  I bring that up because depression has always included a sensation of remoteness and withdrawing for me  --  like some kind of psychic insulation from harsh, hurtful reality. Wow, I read the Bardo Thodol a long time ago and maybe remember 1/10 what you do.  Now that you refresh my memory, I realize where the idea of "enlightenment in the afterlife" came from.  Can't wait to call my friend and share that with her! I have recently been contemplating the subject of death because the depth of depression that I experience can be measured by the number of times per day I consider suicide.  While I don't think I could ever do it, such thoughts are not good.  To counter those thoughts, it has helped me to consider that death would not be the end of the line  --  that suicide would only make thing worse in the long run. I have been blessed on two occasions to be able to see a soul/spirit leave a body.  Believe me, I know a hallucination when I see one (teehee) and on neither of those occasions was I hallucinating.  So, as far as I am concerned, I KNOW we have an immortal spirit within us.  You'd think such knowledge would make me deliriously happy and immune to depression for life, wouldn't you? Ahh, that H. sapiens is one weird beastie... Roy!  Great questions!  Maybe we should start a topic "Ask Baba Sassyfras"  --  what d'ya think? Namaste    ~eon

"Baba Sassyfras"~~~LOL, that cracked me up!!! Eon & Roy, you sure ask some good questions....I don't have all the answers but I'm enjoying this discussion and will get back to you asap. My mom is spending the weekend at my place so I won't be on the 'puter very much till she leaves again. We just got back from a hike to this incredible waterfall in Goldstream Park, which is thousands of acres of old growth forest, a magical place, & now we're going to watch "Don Giovanni". Strange to think that there was ever a time when my mother & I didn't get along....we have such good visits these days! Hope y'all are having a great weekend too & see ya later!

Eon - would you care to elaborate on the phenomena you witnessed...spirits leaving the body? I am intrigued...

I'll do my best to keep this short so I don't hog Sassy's thread. On the way back to the states from Honduras, a friend and I spent a night in a hotel in Guatemala City.  We were both asleep when something disturbed me.  It felt sorta like I was being shaken and I looked up to see my buddy sitting up in the next bed looking at me with his eyes wide open.  His mouth was moving like he was talking and he was waving his hands like an Italian on speed. I was about to bitch him out about waking me, when I looked down at the bed  --  and saw him lying there, asleep. I did a classic 'double take'.  There he was, sitting up, animated as could be.  There he was, peacefully asleep, head on the pillow. I could see he was trying to talk to me, but I could not hear a sound.  After a few more double takes, I looked him directly in the face (the one that was sitting up) trying to understand what the hell was going on, and then I felt like I gave him a push from somewhere in the center of my body. The 'body' that was sitting up turned first into an oval of light and then appeared to recede into distance, though it was still visible in the hotel room, as it shrank to a small circle of light.  The result was a lot like the after-image of a flash bulb going off.  But, unlike a flash after-image, it stayed in the same place in the room, no matter if I turned my head away.  It persisted for about a minute, as I blinked repeatedly and rubbed my eyes. I know I wasn't dreaming, because I was on my feet walking around before the circle of light finally faded.  In fact, I was on my feet for about 15 minutes after that, walking around in circles, trying to get my head around what had happened.  I'm sure it took another 15 minutes to calm down enough to get back to sleep when I finally laid back down. Here is the really interesting part:  his favorite and very close brother was going to fall off a roof and die a couple of days later.  Considering the 'push' I gave him, I believe that he needed my energy to make the journey from Guatemala to Madison to be with his brother before he died. I have had plenty of strange hallucinations, but that wasn't one of them. Watcha think?     ~eon

Amazing and fascinating...sounds like what I have read about subtle, or astral bodies. I have never seen one myself - at least - not without being on something first. I do not discount the 'hallucinations' I have had during various trips, but seeing something like that stone cold sober is something else I think. There is no room to argue whether or not any drugs were involved in the experience, etc. Don't quite know what to make of that for real. And it IS interesting about the push you gave your friend, that is some strange shit Eon... thanks for sharing that, maybe we can get more into this in another thread? Peace!

Well, finally some time to get back to our conversation! But first, I want to tell you, Eon & Cal, to feel free to continue your talk about "seeing" your friend's spirit leaving his body~~~sometimes a thread just moves in interesting & unexpected directions & I love it when that happens~~~I'm not even a little bit possessive about any thread I've started so please carry on if you wish. Ok, Roy, I'll start with your questions, which were, basically about whether or not we have any choice as far as coming back (reincarnating) after we die, & if not, then do we have any say in what kind of a body or family we will be reborn into, what our "body" in the Bardos is like and how long it takes from the time of death to being reincarnated again. Whew, great questions, Roy! I don't know anything for sure, of course, so my responses to these questions are based only on a combination of what I have read, and insights gleaned from moments of clarity....sometimes as a result of entheogens, sometimes in the spiritual awakenings that often follow an emotional catharsis. I believe that we always have a choice, even if it often seems as if we are powerless "meat puppets" just being swept along by forces beyond our comprehension. The Bardo Thodol tells us that if we recognize the primary white light we are bathed in during the first (Chikkai) Bardo, right after we die, that we can at that moment let go of all we have identified ourselves as being (i.e. our ego) and allow ourselves to merge and become one with the light, we will have entered Nirvana & do not need to come back or even move into the next Bardos. But unless a person is truly ready to let go go, their unfinished karmic business will propel them away from the light and on into the Chonyid Bardo, which is kind of a "judgement day" stage in which the person comes face to face with the results of both their positive & negative deeds....which are often seen in the form of archetypal images of Demons and Gods, or whatever forms their own belief systems conjure up...i.e. a Christian would "see" a different set of beings than a Buddhist would. The Chonyid Bardo is considered to be the most intense Bardo & going through that will make it clear to the person whether or not they will need to reincarnate again to carry on with "unfinished business". It is still possible to attain Nirvana at this point, but that would be more difficult than it would have been in the Chikkai Bardo. If, after going through the Chonyid Bardo, the person has not attained Nirvana.....he/she will move into the final Bardo, the Sidpa Bardo.....which will be their final opportunity to attain Nirvana, but more likely the stage where they will choose the body, the parents & circumstances for their next incarnation. While the person may not have been very aware of their "body" during the first 2 Bardos, in the Sidpa Bardo they will discover that they have amazing abilities to fly, to move right through seemingly solid obstacles, to instantly transport themselves from one realm to another. They will be able to visit all of the possible realms into which they can choose to be reborn into, worlds of Gods & Heroes, Paradise Realms or the Realms of Beasts~~~~from this vantage point, however , it is usually clear to the person that rebirth into a human Realm will give them the best opportunity to evolve further. Some choose a Paradise Realm kind of the way people choose to go on a vacation after a particularly exhausting life on earth. Some are so exhausted & frightened by their trip through the Bardos that they seek refuge in the realm of beasts, the dark caves & large furry bodies seem simple & comforting to them. But most will understand that a human rebirth will serve them best and they will be surrounded by scenes of men & women having sex. If they have never in their previous lives practised any kind of meditation or other spiritual disciplines, they will not have the freedom of choice as much as those who did so. ( This, I personally believe, is the reason that so many monks practice celibacy during their lives....having some control over one's sexual impulses will serve them well should they find themselves in the Sidpa.....they will be better able to make a conscious choice regarding the nature of their future parents if they are not overwhelmed by their own uncontrolled sexual feelings.) So, yes, a person has choice with regards to all you asked about, Roy, although the very ignorant would seem to have far less. The greater the karmic debt, the less choice a person has......in some cases just making the choice to work off that debt is the most they can do....but once that crucial choice has been made, other doors & choices begin to open. As far as the time it takes from the moment of death to rebirth, the Bardo Thodol says it takes 7 weeks, or 49 days. But then it goes on to say that time is measured very differently in the Bardos so that any attempt to come up with a number won't be very accurate. You know how sometimes when you wake up early in the morning & then go back to sleep for just a minute or two & then awake again...having had an epic dream in just that minute? Time becomes a very fluid & subjective thing when we leave our normal waking state of consciousness. Well, I gotta run now, but I'll get back later today to discuss the points you brought up, Eon. And I just want to say again that none of the above can be either proven or dis-proven. When you think about it, it's kind of funny how it's always the things like that, the things that are impossible to prove, that people get into the most violent arguments & even wars about. That we argue most about the things we know the least about. People can get SO attached to their belief systems, ya know?

Most very excellent, Sassy! Roy, Sassy provided an excellent summation of a maybe 300 page book in a few short paragraphs.  I have no direct knowledge of such things that I am able to remember, but Sassy's descriptions are totally bang-on from all I have read. While on the subject of reincarnation, I'd like to share something I have been thinking about for a couple of years now.  Ya know how reincarnation is not supported by the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, right?  Those religions happen to have the most aggressive and war-like adherents, right?  And their adherents show little regard for nature, ecology, each other and animals (because animals are said to not possess a soul).  When the adherents of the Abrahamic religions die, they believe they wander across fluffy clouds, playing harps (or maybe golf) and being blissful for eternity. Just don't forget to say "Save me Jesus, I repent!" right before you die, and all your miserable, selfish acts shall be forgiven.  What a steaming crock of total BS ! ! ! Do ya think that if people knew they would keep coming back until they got it right they would still rape the environment?  Start wars?  Lie, cheat and steal for money?  Be bigots? No wonder so many CEOs and politicians are reborn Christians, it suits their greedy, selfish lifestyles.  How many of those reborn Christians sincerely work at emulating Jesus?  How many ever ask themselves:  "What would Jesus do?" Gee, hope I don't trip getting down off this lofty pulpit! ET

Haha, Eon, there always IS that danger of falling from our pulpits! I once invented  a "portable pedestal", a device designed to smooth out the rough edges of the ego of those who have just emerged from my "ego decompression chamber"...another original invention. But that is another story, lol! Good observation about those religions that don't accept reincarnation having  the most brutal & war like members, so very true. But it's way past my bedtime now so I'll have to come back tomorrow to continue this discussion....sweet dreams to y'all & see ya in the a.m.

Hi Sas, Wow you really answered a lot of my questions.  In a way I was half kidding and half serious but the questions I asked are valid.  You answered a lot of my questions and put a lot of thought into it and I thank you.  I may of mentioned that I am a Edgar Casey fan.  There was a book called "Edgar Casey on Reincarnation" and it is similar in a lot of ways to what you have said.  If you should ever want to read about my buddy Edgar C  I would suggest "There is a River" or "The Sleeping Prophet"  or "Edgar Casey on Reincarnation" as these are my favorites. I used to belong and go to ARE (Association for Research and Enlightenment) meetings and learned quite a bit. Now this sound great, if I am able to do this why would I want to come back to the Earth plane.  I would like to stay in this stage, I don't want to come back. OK, if I have to choose a realm I will take the Paradise Realm, that sounds good too.  I have had a pretty exhausting life this time.  Please, I don't mean to whine many people are worse off than me.  People like in India where they live is sewer pipes and have only the clothes on their back.  Or a place like Malaysia where gum is illegal and they watch every move you make.  That's what I am afraid of, life has been tough enough here in the wonderful US of A.  I really don't think I could handle living in India in such severe poverty.  I don't know about that, it don't seem to work so well for the Catholic Church.  A priest molests a kid in Boston and they send him to Chicago to molest there - moving a priest from one city to another is not the answer, they got to fire the priest.  Molestation is a big deal and could make the child mistrustful of  all the religious figures for life.  Maybe even turn against God.  Sex is not dirty of course some people do weird things and make it dirty.  BTW all this is just my opinion. Ahh, could this be why some people are born in poverty in India? Edgar C says time is different over there, on the other side. In the book "Edgar Casey on Reincarnation" he names people who have reincarnated.  One that I remember is Marie Antonet (sp), the Queen during the French revolution, reincarnated with her hubby and son and lived as a family as in their past lives.  A lot of what you say is in line with the Edgar C view.  I have never read The Book of the Dead and I can not concentrate that well and do not read much.  I am not familar with the terms Bardo Thodol, Bardos, the first (Chikkai) Bardo, Nirvana, and Chonyid Bardo.  The ARE people are in to the seven characks, reincarnation and Askastic records and such.  And I ask that you forgive my spelling for I really do not want to take the time to look it up and I believe you know what word I am trying to say. The ARE folks are such that you can have a Christian, Jew, Islamist (yea I just made up that word) or Buddhist or whatever and they all get along.  They do not argue the differences but rather to put it very, very simply they obey the Golden Rule.  They practice love thy God and love thy neighbor and practice spirituality rather than religion and dogma. Sass, I really enjoyed our conversation and would like to talk a little more about it but we covered a lot.  If the discussions are too long It will be a chore rather than enjoyable.  But I will get back with ya and tell you of what I would like to do but can run into a Twilight Zone like ending.  Or one of them movies where you make a deal with the devil. Eon - I will answer you response later my back is hurting from all this typing.  I'm lucky I don't have a headache from thinking. lol  I read Sass's letter several times. I hope we did not hijack the topic, if so maybe ole Cal will move it to a new topic. Very best to all,  cinderpath

I've split this thread so we can continue the fascinating discussions that have come up - I guess the title is accurate enough. I have an interesting point to share on reincarnation: Dr.Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" ruminates on the (possible) 'biology' of the spirit...he says, and I am paraphrasing, that the 'soul' enters the body of the developing embryo at 49 days or seven weeks. Why this is interesting is that this is also the time that the first primordial flood of certain hormones (namely DMT and 5 MeO DMT) are detected - AND this is also the time when the sex of the fetus is established. He came upon this parallel as a coincidental observation...he had been practicing Buddhism and when he realized the similarities in his faith and his research he was surprised. His hypothesis is that this chemical, this endogenous hormone DMT, is produced in the human pineal gland (associated with the third-eye chakras in Eastern philosophy) and it is by this molecule that the 'soul' or 'spirit's movement into and out of the body is facilitated. It is a fascinating possibility and a damned good argument for the 'biology' of the spirit. It sure is an awful weird coincidence that seven weeks into embryonic development happens to be the same time that sex is determined and the same time that these hormones are detected...we may not be too far away from beginning a true science of the spirit where we can actually begin to measure and study these phenomena that have been the exclusive realm of mystics and religions since the dawn of Man. whatever the case may be, I am interested in Roy's book recommendations of Casey's and will look into those, he has always fascinated me. Check out Strassman's work, it's mind blowing!

Thanks, brightwillow, for starting a new thread for this topic! Maybe now we'll get a few others here joining in on this discussion too... Eon, You brought up so many interesting points I'm not sure how to start! I've also often wondered about what the "survival" value of depression might have been in another era of human history. Some people think that early humans didn't even have depression, since they lived such a healthy & simple life, but my feeling is that depression has been around from the beginning & that it did & still does serve some purpose. I picture our early ancestors huddling in their caves as winter approached, with longer, colder nights, shorter days & fewer hunting opportunities~~~& I see them getting depressed~~~& their depression serving them in that it slows down their metabolism, puts them into a semi "hibernation" mode where they huddle together for warmth, sleep a lot and conserve energy. Many depressed people nowadays do much the same thing. They spend very little time outdoors & sleep more than usual. At this point the depression is usually just a form of S.A.D. ( seasonal affective disorder ), caused mostly by less light from the sun hitting the retinas of our eyes, which in turn signals our pineal gland to change our hormonal/metabolic system into a slowed down survival mode. This depression would have lifted quickly once our ancestors started spending more time outside again, just like people these days can get relief from S.A.D. by using light therapy. I really like what you wrote about there " probably being specific neurochemical states that occur when a person is depressed, angry, happy, etc." Yes!!! And those of us who have used various mind altering substances are often particularly aware of being in one or another of these states, sometimes, unfortunately getting to a place where we are constantly trying to manipulate & control how we feel by using different substances. Even if we are using just one substance...say opiates...we soon become very aware of all of the different moods & feelings we go through as the levels of the opiates in our bodies go up or down.  From heaven to hell & everything in between, we've experienced it all, & often in very rapid succession! I read an article once about this prison for the criminally insane, where they were taking these hardened & often psychotic male prisoners and changing them into peaceful, quiet & mild mannered guys simply by raising their mao levels and lowering their testosterone levels. It was basically a chemical castration. Makes a person kinda wonder...who & what are we really...when our entire personalities & behaviours can be changed simply by adjusting the chemistry of our brains. And "behavioral addictions" are every bit as real & often harmful as the better known substance addictions are. I think we've all known people who used strong feelings such as anger to cover up their underlying fear & anxieties. Venting our anger can make us feel very powerful...temporarily at least. I've seen a lot of couples who would go  into a "fight & fuck" mode, an exhausting roller coaster of yelling at & abusing each each other to the point of exhaustion & then to "make up" with passionate sex afterwards. Yeah, that's exactly what stopped me from considering suicide as a possible solution in the past, the sense that doing so would only mean having to come back & dealing with the source of my misery later. Now THAT is depressing, lol, when you can't even fantasize about leaving all the heartache behind forever by committing suicide! " Suicide is like dropping in on God uninvited "....can't remember where I read that but I like it. ( Not that my concept of "God" is of some being outside of & other from myself,  I think of "God" more as a level of consciousness.) I've noticed that too, Eon, that the people who believe in reincarnation generally seem to live in a more conscious & caring way than those who don't. And I have to believe that, in the end, life IS fair. Even if we see some people go through their lives seemingly thriving & successful & earning big money through unethical means while others go without their entire lives, I believe it all gets balanced out in the course of numerous lifetimes & eventually proves to be fair. Hmmm, I've been feeling very dull & sluggish the last couple of days...I think I'll start another round of microdosing soon!

'enlightened greed'.  By that I mean that the most greedy, self-serving thing one can do is to help and nurture one's fellow humans. Nice! Eon' I love your concept bro! Beautiful. Blessings and Light' Nobu +

Hi People, Cal - I can't find the post I made about 4:00 am or so.  Could you keep an eye out for it.  Oh man I hope it's not lost, probably not. You said something about DMT: The Spirit Molecule, that your read the book.  Here is a link to the author's interview on the Lauralee program. http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?search=DMT%3A+The+Spirit+Molecule&range=All&x=15&y=1 And here is a an idea what you will listen to:  Pineal Gland and the Mystical Experience     Rick Strassman Author of "DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences" explored the neurochemical basis of spiritual experiences with DMT, one of the most powerful psychedelics known, in DEA-approved clinical research on 60 volunteers. DMT, manufactured by our pineal gland, facilitates the soul's Click on Audio on Demand.  By George (not George Bush), I might just listen to it again.  cinderpath