Questions about Iboga and subutex

PM or look up threads by: Grateful Dad or Lightswitchedon Many threads on these matters due to Lightswitchedon's experiences and helpful contributions.

Thanks for the taking the time out to respond. I've read around some of the threads about sub and Iboga and am caught in 2 minds. I have spoken with Sara Glatt and she claims you can detox straight from suboxone even at 2mg, now many other people are saying you must be off the sub and on an opiate for long as possible before even considering Iboga, whether Sara has less experience with sub or she 's misinformed I dont know. If I was to indeed go for a flood from 1mg in January then I do not want to think later I under flooded, or if I was to wait couple of months and then do a flood it may be difficult to find a provider by then or Sara may not be available, so at the moment am caught in 2 minds Greatfuldad if I can get through the acute phase can I use boosters for the PAWS? what am suggesting is that if I can use an opiate or tapering low to get past the initial stages of sub acute withdrawals without doing a flood of Iboga, and then simply use boosters for PAWS after.

Hello tranquilpine90 and welcome to our humble abode, glad to have you  You ask really great questions, smart and important ones, to the point - this says alot about your willingness to do things the right way and I always enjoy it when new members who have little or no experience ask the right questions...good stuff. As usual, GD took the words right outa my mouth - you are well answered...if something else comes up or I re read the thread and have any ideas or suggestions I will chime back in with them. Sara Glatt has more experience treating opiate/opioid dependency than many other people put together, and though not infallible (who amongst us is?) her word is trustworthy. YET -any discerning individual, which you certainly appear to be - will not take any one person's advice as gospel but will form opinions and base decisions on information gleaned from many sources, noting the places where consensus and agreements are strongest, and other areas that leave important questions unsatisfactorily...unsatisfied heh. What you have tangentially encountered - and will continue to encounter on this topic - is what amounts to a perennial 'disagreement' most accurately described as one of personal (provider) preferences concerning safety, efficacy and practicality of treating what we call LAOs (long acting opiates) with iboga or ibogaine...some insist it is impractical and therefore could even be considered a waste of valuable resources and time (not to mention sometimes over hyping the physical risks), while others reason that if the specific protocols are followed exactly and the right materials used, so forth - that there is no reason to go through fifty different adjustments and make it more difficult than it needs to be. In short, some folks say 'yea' to iboga's therapeutic capabilities detoxing right off Subs and some say 'nay' - that ibo's effectiveness is dampened by the strange agonist/antagonist properties of such a complex drug as buprenorphine and that where PAWS is concerned the naysayers claim a drastic reduction in ibogaine's long term performance as compared to more traditional SAOs (short-acting opiates like Vicodin) So much of all of this is so very individualized and unique to the one needing treatment. People respond differently to the same medications all the time, be it cannabis, alcohol, or even aspirin. We must always take that into account. Your dose is low enough that you might be able to just 'hack it' for the acute phase, and to answer your question to GD - "yes" - if you do manage to quit and get through the main nastiness you can boost or microdose to help attenuate lingering PAWS. It seems the post acute phase is what grieves most Sub users the worst in any event - even if they do flood. More and more you read about people getting off the Subs and then having a rough way to go several weeks afterward. I think this is likely the main reason - or certainly one of them - that folks like to suggest being on short term opiates for as long as possible before an ibogaine detox, to mitigate the worst of the PAWS. As we mentioned earlier, everything is relative and everyone responds differently. Some are more sensitive to PAWS and some could give a poop less and just power through their symptoms. And everything in between... So - I'm sure this post was a big help LOL  mainly I just wanna welcome you and wish you luck. Hope to see more of you and keep researching and fighting the good fight!

Hi, brightwillow gives both sides of the story but it seems that I have read many times people say I should of stayed on SAOs longer.  The severe depression from Sub can last for months and months from people I know who are telling me the truth.  I think if your able go the SAO route and make it easy on yourself.  GD did kick methadone with Ibo but took a hell of a lot and was puking for days if I remember correctly.  Hey GD, may I ask how much Met you were taking and didn't it go a lot smoother with the pods?  Your puking story reminds me of mine, I was on the way to the hospital for the first time in my life and then made a phone call that saved me from having to go. Best,   cinderpath

Here is one person's experience getting off Subs using SAO's and Ibogaine: https://ibogaine.club/community/good-day-to-all-fellow-freakazoid-beings Good luck.

Am curious about this too, been asking and wondering about this in the past year. Can I ask how does a SAO cut down on PAWS time? how does this mechanism work? I thought you take a SAO for long as PAWS are there which can be 6 months to a year, but now am reading that SAO can cut down on PAWS and not just mask the symptoms, I wonder how this works.. Example someone takes SAO for 7 months to combat sub PAWS but now am being told you only need to take SAO for 3 months to combat 6 months worth of sub PAWS, how does this work?   isn't the brain still covered by opiates so therefore quitting any type of opiate you will need to let your receptors produce natural endorphins and this is through PAWS? so how does a SAO cut down on PAWS time? Am still not sure about Iboga from sub, suppose I will just continue to taper down and see how I feel.

Switching to SOAs before the iboga flood makes it easier for the ibogaine to do its work. I switched for 30 days when flooding to get off 5 years of Suboxone. That was my first flood 5 years ago or so. I avoided all major withdrawal. Had the usual post flood fatigue and then sleeplessness but that's normal. As for PAWS, switching to a SAO before the flood will help some with that. There are things that will help--exercise, good nutrition, some supplements and other things that will help. Read other posts. The tips are there. For me, PAWS has always been a battle even after ibogaine, but its a helluva lot easier than without iboga. I cold turkeyed once without anything and the difference is huge. Its not simple and takes some work. Read the thread about marlo_learns that is suggested. Ibogaine opens the door but you have to walk through and do your part. For a bunch of us it takes more than one try. Good luck.

I can imagaine about the PAWS issue. What I was asking was where people claim SAO cuts down on PAWS regardless if they Iboga or not. Having said that am still trying to figure out how a stay on  SAO for however long can cut down on months and months of WDs and PAWS, even if its for Iboga purposes. @fitzerman-Did you take any boosters after your initial flood? I know sub withdrawal is mild but its the duration and brain getting back to normal (PAWS) is the problem. I was wondering too whether to take low dose boosters after I have weaned off subutex, surely a wean ti 0.1 can be enough to no need Iboga? and for PAWS perhaps small boosters? I think it can be beneficial for the brain to adjust and go through months of adjustment and returning to normal without any treatment so when you jump and are in PAWS you'll be use to it and perhaps easier to adapt? then suddenly do Iboga or whatever and having to adapt to normalcy in few days to a week? might take a lot out of the brain, but we shall see down the line what happens.

Yes I read that thread, it seems Iboga did not do what they expected, that also concerns me. When they took sub several weeks after Iboga they felt like in withdrawals again? that tells me Iboga did not really reset the receptors or anything because they should have felt like they never took sub and like it was for the first time whereby, you dont get withdrawals..   I don't know if 1 month will be long enough before Iboga, if even if Iboga is the right option for long term sub users. Again we shall see how I feel once I touch 0.2.

freedom, I see now what you were actually asking. I think the switch to a SAO will lessen the withdrawal and PAWS compared to subutex. I don't agree that the withdrawals from subutex is less. I think its as bad acutely and much longer lasting. There are stories all over the internet of people having acute withdrawal for weeks after jumping off suboxone/subutex. Tough to go weeks with that. It was 3-4 days of hell for me to cold turkey off oxycodone. Can't imagine going weeks. That's why I turned to ibogaine. Couldn't jump off even when tapered down to a small dose. That's my experience. Good luck and welcome aboard. There are more answers(accurate answers) here than anywhere else i have found.

Not enough IMO.  But when I say in my opinion I should say in my experience with others.  Should switch to SAO (Poppy Pods if possible) for at least 1 month but preferably 3 months.  My good friend had great experience very gradually microdosing on Iboga RB while switching to SAO (Poppy Pods is what he used).  And then very gradually having a bit more Iboga before the flood.  We failed on several levels(although he is "clean" now so failed is a weird term)... (1) He was only on SAO for one month.  He says he should have been on them for at least 3 months, if he could have done it over. (2) On the morning of the flood, which took place in the evening, he had Poppy Pods and was therefore not in withdrawal enough.  I/we made the mistake of thinking he was in withdrawal enough but I/we should have been much more strict in regards to the indication of clear cut withdrawal symptoms. (3)He ended up with PAWS almost 3 hrs into the Iboga.  He should have had more Iboga too.  Need a lot for this, Sub users are the most difficult IMO.  So that's the other mistake because he didn't take enough Iboga.  Should not take it all at once though, incrementally for this very particular protocol.  No slip ups here, be exact.  The last thing I/we/your sitter/and you wants to see is you in PAWS.  Do you know who to PM on this?  We have 2 resident experts in this department, one has been absent for months now the other is Grateful Dad.  Grateful Dad please tell me if I should stop telling people to PM you otherwise I always try to refer people to you when this comes up.  I can imagine it becomes taxing so my apologies if it is an issue.

So you have to be in withdrawal to do Iboga? I thought it did not make a difference for short acting opiates whether one is in WD or not, and Iboga still does its job. Or is it the case of more withdrawals and more Iboga? Can you still take Iboga while switching to a SAO and on a SAO? What if one weans down on the sub to 0.1 or something and then does an Iboga flood or boosters? they wouldn't need to be on a SAO then surely?

I applaud you for your questions and thoroughness Freedom and soon to be complete and utter Freedom. While this is no where near my expertise I do have some experience in this realm to answer your questions to the best of my ability... Well I would say you need to be in withdrawal at least for 24 hrs if at all possible.  Even on SAO.  We ran into this problem with only 12 hrs. time in between last Poppy Pod dose and then Iboga.  We both acknowledged that it was a big issue that he was not in complete withdrawal.  Yes, but first and foremost let's exercise safety first.  So small microdoses of 500mg-1.5gr at most.  And yes this worked well for my friend as he was weening off subs to microdose.  Helped him tremendously.  He was able to take a bit more of Iboga each day he weened a bit more from subs.  Bottom line is you don't want PAWS.  So no to flooding or boosters before completely switching over to SAO for at least and I mean at least 1 month.  But please try and consider switching over to SAO's for as long as you can, please.  For your sitters sake please.  I would say yes for sure switching over to SAO's is a necessity.  Some have had success without but that is extremely rare, chances are not in your favor if you don't.  Stack all the cards in your favor...PLEASE.  My friend was also doing Kambo which really helped him detox from the Subs.  So another possibility to consider maybe.  No shortcuts please, this should be a place for success and I think we all have a real love for beating the odds around here.  This place is built on miracles and it would be best for you to do so as well.

I totally agree with KP about the SAO's. I was on methadone about 4 years, I was able to switch to a SAO for one month prior, I wish I had had two months and from anecdotal evidence we have hear here many times, subs are even harder than methadone to come off of, even with Ibo. That shit stays in your system for so long, best to get as much of it out first, your PAWS won't be nearly as bad. I also think Kambo could help you out, it may purge some of those subs out and the lessen the PAWS roxine

Cheers for the responses guys do appreciate this. Where can I get Kambo from? not too familiar with that. Also I did not know you can use low dose Iboga to wean off sub as I was told it was too difficult with long acting opiates (weaning with Iboga). Can I ask what if you "DONT" switch to a SAO and is clean for a month or 1 from sub? same thing as being off sub for long as possible isn't it? I still do not understand how a stay on a SAO for month or over cuts down on withdrawals and PAWS from sub whether with Iboga or not. I thouht th point of switching to a SAO was to be on SAO for long as PAWS stand from sub,which, say is 6 months to a year, but now am hearing SAO cuts down on sub PAWS drastically, I do not know how this mechanism works.. Am talking about whether with or without Iboga. I mean would staying on  SAO for 2 weeks for example make any difference to sub WDs and PAWS considering 2 weeks is when the WDs of of sub reach their peak, but am hearing SAO cuts down on WDs even if you dont do Iboga, I don't know how the plasticity of the brain works in this matter. Like I said its taking SAO for 3 months to cut down eliminate 6 months of PAWS of bup, how and why does this work? I always thought switching to SAO was to stay on SAO for long as bup PAWS stand and not for the reduction of bup PAWS. Again am talking generally without Iboga too, where, people switch on SAO to get off sub. Does SAO suck up sub WDs and PAWS or something? or merely mask them. Also problem is I have zamorph/extended release morphine, about 1 months worth and some codeien, again 1 months worth but they will only last me that long IF I do a slow wean off subutex to 0.1 so I dont need much SAO to cover the withdrawal symptoms, or elsee SAO will only last me 3 weeks or so.

Can PM me about Kambo. Maybe I recklessly used the wrong word to give false hopes, if I did so my apologies.  Let's change ween to helps.  So as your weening off of the subs you can take a bit more Iboga RB if it suits you and feels ok.  But you have to start very small as you do so and be ever so gradual so as not to be too overly uncomfortable.  Taking too much RB while you're still on subs can get extremely uncomfortable.  When I say too much I'm saying like 500mg too much.  It's actually quite precise, granted I have no idea how you react with Iboga nor your rate of tolerance to it.  Yeah.  You mean cold turkey?  For a month?  That would be better yes, but extremely challanging, right?  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.  Also I have never had opiates of any sort so it's hard for me to empathize/translate/understad a lot of times.  So on that same note, I don't feel it proper to give my input on your other questions.  Others will chime in that know better where you're coming from.  Just keep the thread alive.

Has anybody ever had some depression after doing Iboga? not that  I have done a flood yet but am just curious if people had PAWS/depression post-Iboga from whatever opiate they were coming off.

Hi tranquilpine90, Yes,  If you have been on opiates a long time you will probably have PAWS and maybe depression but nothing like you would Cold Turkey that is for sure! roxine